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Post by tomlory on Oct 5, 2021 2:36:48 GMT
This evening, I performed my 4th or 5th jury rig repair of my nearly 10 year old Logitech G27 wheel base to reduce the amount of free play at the steering wheel which had grown to over 1/4" in every direction except for axial.
Much of the internals are now bolted through the outer case, the front clamps have been replaced by bolts, the access cover is modified so that I can remove it without removing the steering wheel, I'm down to one functional button on the wheel spoke, there is play between the rim and the wheel spokes and the leather is worn past its thickness in spots with the plastic rim showing. I regret not checking my rF1 and rF2 data as it seems like I should have well over 100,000 sim miles at this point.
The wheel and especially pedals have performed admirably for the $250 that I spent but watching reviews of the new Fanatec CSL DD with comments like "I can feel the sidewalls [tires] flexing under load" has made it clear that I can't feel much of anything. I've suspected for months that most of sim driving information comes from what I see on the screen but I had attributed the difference to the move from rF2 to iRacing but evidently that is bullshit.
Regrettably, $1200+ of equipment to hobby sim race is a tough nut to crack at the moment plus the Fanatec gear does not seem to be readily available at the moment with "pre-orders" the status quo and Christmas coming soon.
There are rumors that to me jive with the potential market for a less entry-level setup from Logitech. I'm not getting my hopes up but it feels like the next 6-12 months will be an interesting time for wheel bases.
I made adjustments all over the range both in-game and in the Logitech software with no obvious improvement. There is definitely force but not much in the way of feedback. I remember what seemed at the time to be magical feedback with the best mods in rF1 but even then even then dynamics as simple as oversteer was always lacking for me; in real life, correcting for oversteer is unconscious with the steering wheel naturally turning the way that it needs to but with the sims as far as I can remember I've always had to unwind the wheel by hand.
There's a ton of friction in the mechanical bits, I can see much of the feedback being lost there.
The pedals have been dead reliable. I've cleaned brake and/or throttle potentiometers maybe three times.
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Post by K Juliot on Oct 5, 2021 13:58:30 GMT
The Fanatec CSL DD wheel has me thinking if my G27 took a dive I'd have to seriously consider it. It's not much more then a Thurstmaster T300 base which is a slight upgrade from the G27 I was thinking about. I have the Leo Bodner cable for the pedals so that lets me run them separate from the wheel and makes them 12 bit resolution. I do want to upgrade the brake pedal to a load cell modification.
I'd love to do a big upgrade to my rig but that money is going into a real car right now.
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Post by P Sweeney on Oct 6, 2021 15:58:15 GMT
The last 3 weekends my G27 is losing center. For the past 15 years I've always left teh wheel hooked up and she calibrates at boot up, it sometimes is on center, sometimes not so I guess the little plastic piece inside needs replaced. So last weekend I left it unhooked and lauch iRacing and it says configuring controls, then plug it in and it calibrates on center. Now - after running araound awhile it starts to drift one way or another so I just unplug it, plug it back in, reset it the wheel in options and good to go for awhile.
I know a ramble there but other than the plastic fix, does anyone know about the drifting? I do not think they're the same problem. And I too have been looking at a lot of video on the CSL DD and preparing for an upgrade so thats why I haven't tackled opening the G27 up or pulling out my G25.
Tom - reading about you just sent me off to wonderland. You are so fast with absolute shit. Man, god love you, I don't know how you do it.
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Post by K Juliot on Oct 6, 2021 18:15:53 GMT
As far as I know the drifting issue Pat is usually the little plastic encoder wheel on the shaft no longer tight on the shaft. Normally caused by it splitting. Mine is centered or calibrated very slightly to the right, so thinking I have the same issue.
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Post by tomlory on Oct 6, 2021 19:19:59 GMT
Tom - reading about you just sent me off to wonderland. You are so fast with absolute shit. Man, god love you, I don't know how you do it. Thanks, Pat. Unlike you, I do have some time available to practice on weeknights and a worn out G27 is miles better than a Playstation controller that we all did thousands of Gran Turismo laps with so that's probably helping. I've been checking the historical lap time stats at iRacing. I've been as high as 95 percentile (Porsche Cup 991 @ Long Beach) but it seems like I'm usually at 85% after an average week. Higher tier equipment would eliminate most of the possible excuses and I'm fine with that especially now that the G27 has degraded to the point that I'm not really enjoying the racing. I'll still get my three races in a week but I'll be more focused on having fun with you guys especially in open practice. |
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Post by tomlory on Oct 8, 2021 19:17:01 GMT
I found a setting in the app.ini file that seems to explain most if not all of the recent decline in feel. Maybe part of a recent update or somehow related to me still being on Windows 7 as others with G25/27 haven't been complaining? I may still be handicapped to a degree but at least I can turn with more precision and the pressure to buy a new wheel has been lifted. The other settings are a combination of what is widely recommended plus some setup work of my own. For high mileage Logitech G27in Logitech Profiler global device settings:  in iRacing app.ini:  iRacing in-game (Mustang FR500S):  |
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Post by tomlory on Oct 8, 2021 19:26:30 GMT
Might be worth mentioning that coincidentally I noticed that the brake was sticking. Easy enough to clean with electrical contact cleaner and compressed air once the pedal assembly is removed from the rig and the cover removed but I decided to ditch the cover to make it a 3 minute task rather than a 30 minute one. Granted, I may have to clean them more often but I'll still be way ahead.
Before cleaning the measured resistance with the brake in the OFF position fluctuated between 750-860 ohms, after cleaning it was a stable repeatable number in the 200-300 ohms range (I don't remember the exact number).
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Post by K Juliot on Oct 12, 2021 1:06:12 GMT
Thanks for the info Tom and doing these settings last night with Pat did increase the feel of what's going on. Not the night and day improvement that Pat had but I don't think my wheel is as bad a shape as his and yours.
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Post by P Sweeney on Oct 13, 2021 0:45:39 GMT
Yeah Tom, I second that. Thanks for the help. She turns now LOL
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Post by tomlory on Oct 29, 2022 23:13:21 GMT
Decision Day is less than a month away. Black Friday (Nov 25) is almost certainly when I will buy a new wheel and November 17 IIRC is when we're supposed to find out what Thrustmaster is bringing to the market.
Sadly, this a big purchase for me so I've already started on narrowing down the contenders and can share some pro and cons that exist in my view.
Fanatec CSL DD ($1089 DD Pro + Clubsport R330 rim)
Cons:
Seemingly a long-running arrogance in regard to availability, like the customer needs Fanatec more than Fanatec needs the customer, the customer can wait. Currently the only CSL DD that available is the 8 Nm PC / Playstation version for $100 more than the 8 Nm PC-only version with 7/10 of their listed wheelbases and bundles being "sold out". Long history of pre-orders and missed fullfilment dates.
The QR1 quick release system, flexy, subject to pin breakage, high effort on and off, is going to be replaced by a new QR2 system that has been rumored and/or announced about two years ago.
The polymer QR1 Lite QR that is standard with their lower price wheel rims is garbage.
Customer service seems to be the worst in the industry, especially handling of warranty service.
Pros:
Easily replaceable base-side QR hub. On the CSL DD, simply loosen the base clamp and slide the hub out, it has a USB-C connector that plugs into the motor shaft.
Modular with individual parts available make it the most customizable and theoretically serviceable, ie, button clusters are available individually as are shifters (I have no idea at this time about service and repairs parts).
Largest selection of wheel rims and paddle shifters.
The best user documentation that I've seen (Thrustmaster's look like they were hand drawn by an artistic 12 year old and Moza's look like what you get with a Ring doorbell, quick start guide).
Neutral:
Performance, build quality, mounting, price, software and connectors seem to be par for the space. The T nut and slot mounting solution seems brilliant first glance but can be difficult to line up blindly vs machined threads in the body.
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Post by tomlory on Oct 29, 2022 23:48:28 GMT
Moza R9 ($718 with CS rim)
Cons:
This is a personal one based on national security and economics but Moza is a Chinese company and China is not our ally.
Perceived cooling efficiency. Minimal finning compared to Fanatec, reviews have mentioned runs hot.
Pros:
The best quick release in the industry
Price
Availability
Possibly best customer service based on minimal googling
Reviews have it on-par with CSL DD performance and build quality
Quick release uses 6 x 70mm pattern so real race car rims will bolt on
Neutral
Compared to Fanatec, limited wheel and shifter options, somewhat toylike appearance of rims (in pics), as far I can tell, not possible to mount a real life (Momo, Sparco, OMP, etc) wheel (edit 2022-10-30 07:00 UTC)
Wireless communication between the wheel and the base is supposedly a good thing but I am skeptical.
An adjustable mounting base plate would be helpful to me so that I don't have to modify my rig to get the wheel to an angle that I like. Simagic's pitch-adjustable bracket could be perfect, now that I think about it, I can probably use theirs as the wheel base is likely to have the same (Fanatec, Moza) mounting pattern.
Compact size (the Logtech G Pro is HUGE in comparison to CSL DD, Moza R9, Simagic Alpha Mini even my G27 BUT it would pretty much exactly fit to the space that is available on my rig and as far as I can predict be positioned great) but I doubt that I'd ever buy a prefab rig nor go to small triple screens so I don't think that size matters in this case.
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Post by tomlory on Oct 30, 2022 0:19:57 GMT
Logitech G Pro ($1083)
Cons:
D shaped wheel rim with no current alternatives
unproven reliability and durability (released 2022-09-22)
unknown future "eco system"
Pros:
dual paddle shifters (momentary + analog)
superior to Fanatec QR
it's impossible that TrueForce can't be tweaked to add to the feel at the wheel
well reviewed, gripes are overall size / footprint, wheel rim shape, price
Neutral:
QR system. MOZA has raised the bar, current Thrustmaster is the worst, Fanatec QR1 is not great, Logitech better than Fanatec no complaints that I've found
Easiest mounting for me
Readily available
I'm coming around a little on the flat bottom wheel having only used round rims. I can imagine a flat bottom making it impossible to get lost with where you are in the rotation. How many times have we ended up in the grass with the wheel 180 degrees from TDC and using the wrong shifter paddle?
Price? The MOZA makes it seem a little expensive, Fanatec cost makes it seem to be on par for a ready to race DD solution.
Logitech have evidently thought this through obviously knowing what the competition currently offers. Accordingly, there should be other rims and accessories coming. In one review made by a long-time Logitech user and current RL racer and RL coach and sim racing coach there "will be" other wheel rims.
Logitech isn't going anywhere short of an armageddon-like event
Logitech market cap = $8.96 billion ($8960 million)
Guillemot Corporation (Thrustmaster) = $192 million
Endor (Fanatec) market cap = $158 million
Gudsen Moza is privately held
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Post by mikec1 on Oct 30, 2022 1:13:04 GMT
Nice writeup Tom. I'm slowly dipping my toes in these waters - eventually I'll take the plunge.
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